Culture

Debate Open Thread

I blew it on guessing Biden would cancel. Got suckered by the propaganda I should have known better than to watch, and became over-certain, a cardinal sin on this site. Whether the debate was technology free, I do not know, but even if it was’t, it didn’t seem to matter. Perhaps one of the other two will be canceled, but I no longer have much confidence in that.

Many had Biden ranked low in fluid intelligence coming in. Biden, therefore, beat expectations, which is always seen as good.

After that, ugh. Wallace did what all propagandists do, Biden went into his everyman laughing schtick, which I loathe with a passion, and Trump attacked as he had to.

About the coronadoom, sigh. Read this instead.

Only real thought was that direct elections of Presidents by an ever-increasing and increasingly woke electorate is depressing. Most dispiriting.

And then everybody applauded:

What is it that makes journalists such liars?

My judgement: a draw—because few or no minds were changed. Changing minds is the main purpose of debates.

Your thoughts?

Categories: Culture

66 replies »

  1. I’ve seen the “draw” argument elsewhere this morning but I’m not sure I agree with it.

    This isn’t necessarily a contest between Trump and Biden, it’s a contest between *Hillary* and Biden. Biden needs to win back Deplorables in rust belt states who broke for Trump in 2016. And in that regard, I don’t think last night’s performance helped him do that. Trying to “out-trump Trump” with insults and exasperation isn’t going to do that.

    Trump landed some blows: Burisma, Joe’s poor record, taxes. Chris Wallace was able to lessen some of them, but they still landed and made a mark.

  2. Agree that no minds were changed. Biden never wandered into meaningless anecdotes or started drooling and he never answered a single question regarding his policies. Since Biden therefore met or exceeded expectation he won.

  3. My girlfriend watched debate.
    —Trump was a junkyard dog and overplayed his hand..
    —Biden a ghost, having died sometime ago.
    —Wallace trying to favor Biden lost control.
    —Viewers were the losers.

  4. Biden had been calling lids all month so he could save his strength. You missed that. Plus, as long as Biden can stand, Trump will keep his awake, it seems. Drugs can keep him standing 90 minutes, so no problem.

    Anyone who breaks into tears and has to run to bed because of a President should be dropped in North Korea. They are a destructive parasite in the gene pool. Karens should all be dropped in NK.

    Journalists are EVIL—there is no other term. They WORSHIP SATAN, prince of lies. It’s actually very straight-forward. EVIL. That’s the explanation. Sold their souls.

    A debate almost never changes minds, especially this close to the election. Debate after both candidates are chosen—immediately. AND STOP HAVING ELECTION “YEAR” VOTING. There is a DAY for elections, not a month or a freaking year.

  5. Michael: Your girlfriend would label Trump a junkyard dog. Women are idiots. (Does she think singing stupid folk songs creates peace????) Yes, I know insulting your girlfriend that you had watch the debate instead of you is probably mean, but I’m not like other women and don’t care. The behavior of 99% of women is what it is. Do you want an armed, aggressive defender if you’re kidnapped, or someone to beg? When did “kissing a**” become the motto of the USA?

  6. Biden did not spit out his false teeth and he did not crap his pants so he won.

    Trump was at his depressing worst- arrogant, bullying, unable to articulate the points he was trying to make.

    One example, Mike Wallace’s retarded son, Miss Chris Wallace, described Critical Race Theory (CRT) as “sensitivity training,” and Trump failed to describe what it is and why he cancelled it – he prolly doesn’t know.

    He had to have known this question was going to be asked and one can be sure his handlers had prepped him on how to respond. All he had to do is to ask Miss Chris and Biden if they were racists – once they denied they were racists, or refused to answer, Trump could tell the world that according to CRT all whites are racists simply because they are white and then observe that theory is pure racial hatred.

    The fact that Trump paid $750.00 in taxes was devastating and there is absolutely no way to justify or explain that away – even though it was legal.

    This is what Manchester Liberalism (American Capitalism) has wrought. In all of its gory glory this is what will bring Trump down.

    It’s all over but the shouting and excuse making – Trump will go down hard. Biden as POTUS – Yay America

  7. “Liar, stupid, clown”…are just a few of the pejoratives Biden unleashed.

    I think explicit name-calling like that is about as low as you can go in a debate. Pretty sure that is a first for a presidential debate.

    Trump counter-attacked, with facts and debate points, and responded to Biden’s attack points.

    Talking on top of each other? Isn’t that where we are in public “debates” today? “Maintain decorum” and wait your turn is a chump’s approach. Trump was in a junkyard fight, against two opponents armed with brass knuckles and switchblades. Forget Queensbury’s rules. Take ’em on at their level. Kick ’em where it hurts. And ignore their buddies’ whining the day after. Enough with the decorum. Kick ass and take names.

  8. Trump did a very poor job of defending his outstanding record and policies. I hope he manages to attain a more steady, confident, manner in the next debate. An angry demeanor and repeatedly rude interruption of Biden are not likely to win over anyone not already on his side.

  9. I didn’t get to see the debate live, but after watching a recording.. UGH. Probably the least valuable or satisfying presidential debate I have ever watched. I’d rate it biden C-, Trump D, and Chris Wallace F.
    To me, biden came off as more presidential in general and better prepared, but he said absolutely nothing that alleviated my concern that his vision for America is predicated on his belief in concentration of more and more power and control in the federal government as the answer to EVERYTHING, rather the American People. biden kept weirdly looking into the ether on long answers… almost as if he were reading a script or a teleprompter.

    Trump mostly came off to me as a bore and a bully. He couldn’t get out of his own way, and let his anger (and I’d argue poor preparation) cause him to squander plenty of opportunities to nail biden. He underestimated biden’s handlers, and biden’s own history of being the left’ blunt political instrument. However, my belief that Trump is better than the alternative in terms of keeping as much freedom and power in the hands of the American People as possible didn’t change. Trump needs to come better armed to the next debate.

    Wallace was awful. When he wasn’t getting ran over, he was busy trying to maintain order in a considerably unbalanced way (may re-watch to see if that was the case). Also, some of his questions pre-supposed facts not in evidence or reflected ill-gotten information, such as his questioning on “climate change” or the president’s taxes. I thought the latter in particular was unbecoming.

    When it was done, I felt nauseated.

  10. Amateur: Trump paid a lot more than $750 in taxes. You have to read more than headlines or you look foolish. Interesting you’re cheering a turnip for President….Oh, and expect to pay 80% of your salary for taxes and/or get your benefits cut under the Turnip. Go socialism.

    Kent: I’m sure they can go lower. They prove it over and over. Civility died a long time ago. I have never heard so much profanity in the news and on TV as since the Anointed One Hillary lost and the Dems cut loose all their evil and hatred.

    Fascinating that “Presidential” means “kiss a**”. When did that pathetic definition arrive? When the Dems decided demanding “kiss a**” would win them a dictatorship forever??? Really, Dems use more profanity, burn cities, carry bloody heads about, hate and foment racism and yet the Turnip (Biden) is the “Presidential” one. Does “Presidential” means DICTATOR now via violence and hatred??? Or completely ignorant, barely awake and ABSENT most days? Not to mention Kamala is not allowed in public because she’s more horrible than Trump, yet Dems don’t care about her nasty, unlikeable and unpresidential behavior. SHE WILL BE PRESIDENT if Biden wins, so yes, her viciousness and moral flexibility does matter. Americans are totally idiotic, with no contact with reality.

    The best and most appropriate thing Wallace could have done is gone back stage and fetched a bucket of water and thrown it on both candidates.

  11. Best headline I’ve seen:

    The Morning Briefing: Please God Let the Next 2 Debates Die In a Fire and Spare Us All (PJ Media)

  12. The tax thing is more nuanced than just a payment of $750. In Trump’s defense, as a wealthy man, he hires people to do the hard work for him, and likely does not study old returns when he is in the bathroom. If Chris Wallace read more than the headline of the NYTimes article he would have had a more interesting question. The larger question, not debate worthy, is how did the Times acquire data on his taxes? Is criminality involved? If there is “equality” under the law, every man’s tax info is meant to be private and not slopped across the pages of New York’s biggest rag. I understand the need for “disclosure” vis a vis “conflict of interest” and Trump as he said has filed paperwork with the Federal Election Commission but tax information should have a veil of privacy. That said, how come Wallace is oddly uninterested in Biden’s taxes, and how he could accumulate so much wealth whilst toiling as a public servant? Now, that is a debate question I would like to see, and BTW, how come Wallace is so certain that the public is not interested in the machinations of Hunter Biden’s wealth? Why did the wife of the former mayor of Moscow see fit to throw $3.5M in his direction?

    I just love how whenever anyone on the left some questionable stain on their record they either say it is a “lie” or it’s been “debunked.” They don’t try to correct the “misunderstanding”–they just say it’s a “lie” or “debunked” and expect people to swallow it.

    Joe Biden is like one of those dolls that has a string that you have to pull to hear wacky saying. “Will you shut up, man?” Evidence today shows that he likely wired up, but not surprising. Out the gate he was answering the questions in the wrong order, and Wallace had to prompt him that the discussion was about masks, not about the economy. And then he tries to show himself to be a humble and impoverished man of the people (not like that billionaire Trump) before bragging that Wall Street approves of his plan. Hey, Joe, does the CCP approve of your plan too?

    BTW what is wrong with Biden’s eyes? They are very dark and seem to take up the entire socket. He used to be blue-eyed.

    Wallace was a terrible moderator. A good moderator acts impartially (even if he has a view) and leaves everyone scratching their head later about who he was “for.” He was blatantly biased, and did not treat Trump as the “President of the United States.” He treated him with arrogance and contempt. Why was that idea of Joe Rogan moderating a debate panned? If Joe could do it as Joe and not as the paid bitch of Spotify, it could be edifying.

  13. Sheri Ann Barnardt–“Michael: Your girlfriend would label Trump a junkyard dog.” Junkyard dog is my short translation of her comments. I agree with her 100% and have been called that myself. Junkyard dog is OK. Being a bully isn’t. Trump was more of the latter.

  14. I’m at a place with Biden as I became with Obama – the sounds of their voices makes me physically ill. I don’t think debates such as that change anyone’s mind, I only become infuriated at the constant overtalking, the moderator’s incessant favoring of one over the other.
    Speaking of which, why exactly was Wallace favoring Biden so much? To prove his “impartiality”?

  15. Trump handled it poorly. Considering he’s the king of Alpha Battles I expected better. All he really needed to do was let Biden strangle himself. I understand the need for self defense but his constant interruptions likely saved Biden. Democrats are catching on to Alpha Battle tactics. Trump needs to up his game.

    Trump did get a couple of calm zingers in during the beginning. My favorite was Biden claiming the Democratic Party is what he says it is and Trump said “not according to Harris”. Even CNN caught it. His “I guess I’m debating you” to Wallace was a great one too.

    I noticed that Biden kept looking down at the podium while talking. Wonder what he kept needing to see.

    I also think Trump stated some of his arguments poorly:

    o) Instead of starting with “I was elected” in his reason for nominating Barrett, he should have said something like “The Constitution is clear about the President’s duty. Even Biden has admitted it and RGB also said so. I’m the President and I did my duty. Now it’s up to the Senate.”

    o) He should have gotten Biden to declare if he was a racist or not (and Wallace, too) then hit them with Critical Race Theory is overtly racist; according to it, Biden and Wallace are by definition racists since both are white; and he couldn’t allow such a racist idea to be transmitted withing the Federal government.

    Wallace’s bias was palpable. Constantly castigated Trump for interrupting but allowed Biden to continue to do so. He himself rarely interrupted Biden but constantly interrupted Trump. Every time Trump was about to win a point, Wallace shut it down and tried to move on. I hope he never “moderates” again.

  16. Speaking of which, why exactly was Wallace favoring Biden so much?
    Wallace is a registered Democrat and let it show.

  17. Amateur: Trump paid a lot more than $750 in taxes. You have to read more than headlines or you look foolish.

    Dear Sheri. Yes, that is why the mention that what Trump did was legal. Who cares? The system is rigged in favor of the rich who can afford the lawyers to identify and take advantage of the legalistic minituae lawyers embed in the Tax Codes they write.

    Joey Bagadonuts hates that shite…

    Interesting you’re cheering a turnip for President….

    Didn’t even consider that comment needed a sarcasm tag…Let me make it clear. Biden is a heretic and an idiot and a liar and a fraud and a life-long politician and a creep, and those are his good points.

    Oh, and expect to pay 80% of your salary for taxes and/or get your benefits cut under the Turnip. Go socialism.

    ABS is retired and he does not think Soc Sec benefits will be reduced for us Boomer bastids. ABS is strongly in favor of significantly increasing taxes on the wealthy and the corporations.

    Even though ABS was not too keen on Billy Jeff Clinton he remembers reading a financial newsletter (Strategic Investment, by Lord Rees Mogg and James Dale Davidson) that accurately predicted that if Clinton were elected he would both raise taxes and create a stronger economy.

    They were right.

    O, and they also predicted the fall of the Soviet Union several years before it collapsed and at the time when the CIA , and Conservative Inc. were saying Russia was stronger than the collective indomitable ignorance of every member of the House of Representatives.

  18. I learned that Trump doesn’t know how to form what grammarians call the third conditional in English. He tried this three or four times, and messed it up each time. So he’s managed to reach some approximation of adulthood without learning the basic grammar of his native language.

    Despite this and other substantive shortcomings, Trump won this debate handily, by the current standards of U.S. political theater. I don’t even see it as close. His bullying and contempt for the rules came across as relaxed confidence and dominance, whereas Biden fumbled, nearly lost his way several times, and came across as frustrated and overwhelmed. But worst was Biden’s trick of peering into the camera and appealing to the people. This came across as rehearsed, demagogic, and hilariously insincere.

    Like it or not, since the end of WWII the U.S. has held a kind of leadership position on the world stage. I’m pretty sure this is over.

  19. Yes, that is why the mention that what Trump did [paid only $750 in taxes] was legal. Who cares?
    Trump did get in that Biden’s side voted in the legality but it was lost in the scuffle.

  20. But worst was Biden’s trick of peering into the camera and appealing to the people. This came across as rehearsed, demagogic, and hilariously insincere.

    No that’s one of those Alpha Battle tactics. Stage whispering. Nancy and Chuck used it during the White House Shouting Match. Talking to the press and not the President. It’s a put-down. Says your opponent is insignificant and shouldn’t be included.

  21. There are three and only three possibilities regarding politicians:

    1. They say things they never intend to do;
    2. They say things they would like to do, but know there is no chance of it happening; and
    3. They say things they intend to do and possibly might accomplish.

    Problem is, #1 looks just like #2 and #3. And as far as the Democrats are concerned, their #’s 2 and #’s 3 scare the hell out of me. So, for the most part, these debates are a waste of time.

  22. The best explanation I’ve seen about Trump’s low tax payments for two recent years, was that he purposely overpaid the two years before, as Dick Morris describes here:

    https://www.westernjournal.com/dick-morris-trump-not-avoid-taxes-prepaid/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=AE&utm_campaign=can&utm_content=2020-09-29

    Besides, has everyone forgotten Rachel MadCow waving around a purported “gotcha” return that ended up showing he paid $38 million that year. The tax issue is a dead on arrival, because his returns don’t show he colluded with Russia, and that’s what they were hoping for.

    As everyone could plainly see, Trump was debating both Wallace and Biden last night. When Wallace told us prior to this debate, that he hoped to just fade into the woodwork, most of us rolled our eyes. He didn’t disappoint.

    James Woods posted an interesting photo showing Biden fiddling with a thin wire under his jacket. Why did Biden refuse a pre-dabate wire/earpiece check?

    He also had something odd sticking out of one cuff, and some have speculated it’s a “pic line” for IV drugs. Why did Biden refuse a pre-debate drug test?

    And so, while many commentators here wanted Trump to do well, and thought he didn’t, I’d disagree. After feeling a bit upset with my Liege during the first few minutes, I started watching him, very closely, and listening to every word. He was like a youthful boxer, punching and retreating, punching and retreating. When he failed to “interrupt”, he looked weaker, and Joe was allowed to lie with impunity, unchallenged by his moderator/debate partner, Chris Wallace (D).

    Most important in my book, Trump went after the whole mail-in ballot issue with a killing vengeance, even as Chris Wallace, lip all atremble, tried to conflate “absentee” ballots with the unsolicited kind. Trump did not let them get away with it, and didn’t give an inch on this crucial matter. All in the final minutes of the debate.

    Relax, Trump did just fine. The biggest proof is how Biden’s media partners are proclaiming this debate was a disaster, a train wreck, a boondoggle. The Latino stations had to report last night that Trump won with their viewers, 72-28 or so. That’s pretty much a tromping, or should we say a Trumping. I guess I’m in the minority, in looking forward to debate #dos.

  23. Though not a swing and a total miss, he fouled off 2 hanging curves. Climate he could have ate his lunch. Between him lying about the green new deal ( its on his site for goodness sake, his running mate is a co-sponsor, his energy czar a marxist pusher). and not being able to turn it around with facts on what the weather has done before. He missed. You then tie it in to the real agenda, the destruction of the American way of life via mans relative truth v Gods ( okay you dont believe in God, then nature) absolute truth. I have been trying to get my book to him. Example. Cal wildfires. 20% burns in the US vs 1930s. There are a litany of non climate change reasons and forest management is only one of them. My gosh he left so much on the table It makes me ill. And on race. 1) Scream into the camera so there is no doubt, you condemn any kind of racist supremacy, and if you want white, fine. 2) He could have killed Biden with the line, while you were praising KKK leader, enacting bills to put black males in jail cause you said they were predators, I was getting awards from Jesse Jackson for helping minorities on Wall Street. Then you pound him more with facts, not only on economy, but that he has put more money into HBCU schools, the same schools that Biden lied about where he started from, then all the other presidents combined including your administration. Its amazing how much he leaves on the table. Sound and Fury gets in the way of focus and vision. Classic example.

  24. Biden’s rhetoric was completely inconsistent. In the same argument, he blames Trump for the economy and not shutting it down fast and hard enough. Total nonsense. But, sadly, most viewers on the left will not see that.

  25. “Debates” (a gross misuse of the term for what these farces are) are mainly a joke and always biased against GOP because supposedly “neutral” moderators will do most of the Democrat candidate’s work for him. Absurd that the GOP agrees to terms that will certainly favor Dems, always. Biden’s expectations were so low, it was a “win” for him as long as he remained standing for 90 minutes and didn’t doze off. Chris Wallace was an absolute disgrace, acting more like a Biden campaign surrogate than a serious moderator. And Trump failed for the most part to mount a robust defense of his positions or record, or to challenge the biased assumptions underlying and the questions Wallace posed and framing the terms in Biden’s favor, thus keeping him always on the defensive.

    I knew it was going to be a shi*tshow when Wallace let Biden get away with dodging direct question about whether he supported ending the filibuster and expanding the court to pack it with Democrat nominees. A simple yes or no question really, but Biden just repsonded with a non-sequitur about encouraging people to vote – and Wallace just let it slide and moved on while shutting down Trump effort to get Biden to answer the actual question.

    Also early on, neither Trump nor Wallace countered Biden’s blatant lie about there never having been a Supreme Court nomination and confirmation during an election year. It’s happened 29 frickin’ times – 6 of them in lame duck Senate sessions after election and before new Senate sworn in! There have even been recess appointments of Supreme Court justices. But how many low-info people watching know any of the actual facts and know Biden is lying blatantly, when it goes uncorrected? Any moderator doing his homework should be able to step in to correct such blatant falsehoods, but Biden got a complete pass from Wallace and Trump (who should have been prepared with the facts to counter).

    And, of course, the Coronadoom question was framed entirely in the standard MSM way it has been…more fear and paranoia, the assumption being that it is still a massive super-scary global health crisis, that the President can “do something” to stop the spread of a virus, that the US record is way worse than anywhere else (7 million “cases” etc. the whole “casedemic” lie driving the fear now), etc…but Trump, as he has all along, instead of being strong in defending a more Sweden-like approach and correcting the assumptions underlying the wrongheaded mask and lockdown response, kind of half-asses it…looking just lame and uninformed. He presented nothing to counter the assumption masks work or that schools can’t re-open safely without Biden’s “need more PPE” BS, nothing to counter Wallace’s 7 million “cases” claim by explaining the unreliability of PCR tests and data, etc.
    Trump should have just said, “read Briggs and LockdownSceptics.org and wake the F-up people! Burn your mask, open your businesses, open your schools, and start acting like sane, normal people again!”

    Then Wallace asks Trump to “renounce” white nationalism, implying that he’d ever “embraced” it in the first place (while pushing the debunked “fine people” lie about Charlottesville) , while not asking Biden and the Dems to condemn Antifa and BLM violence ravaging cities for months (and Wallace let Biden get away with claiming Antifa is a mere “idea” not an “organization, etc.). Wallace also tried to frame CRT as mere “sensitivity training,” complete biased BS.

    And of course the tax question was framed as if taken directly from the NYT editorial board, no nuance, just the simplistic falsehood that Trump only paid $750 in taxes, etc. Yet, Wallace didn’t push Biden hard at all on the blatant and massive corruption of Hunter Biden and the impropriety and conflicts of interest it raises for Biden himself. Nor did Wallace ask how Biden about his own taxes – how he has accumulated so much wealth himself, paying $3.5 million in taxes in 2017, while being a on a Senator’s and VP’s salary for over 40 years. At least Trump made his money in the business and entertainment world, not by government corruption.

    Nor did Wallace raise the issue of the recent revelations about the Russia Collusion hoax the Dems have been pushing in their ongoing coup attempt since the 2016 election, including just two days ago about Hilary having possible originated the whole thing to deflect attention from her own email server scandal.

    What a sick joke. Is this really the best this country can do in 2020?

  26. Ann Cherry: Yes. Business taxes are not like the 1040EZ, but the media treats them that way. Also, my understanding is the NYT has NOT seen the taxes, only going on hearsay.

    Amateur: I guess I did not equate the quoting of an incorrect number to saying Trump’s taxes were legal and okay. No Democrat hates the tax code or has any intention of changing it. Unicorns will become real before that happens.
    ABS does not understand that the wealthy and corporations do not pay taxes, their customers do.
    Trump lowered taxes and got a stronger economy. So correlation really is meaningless. So is occasionally hitting the mark on a prediction. (As for your “investment guy”, I predict things all the time and some come out right. I just hide or disregard the wrong ones—it’s how it’s done. Let’s find all the WRONG ones this guy failed to hid now for fun. Writer sounds like one of those evil rich guys to me. Let’s also hate on him.)

  27. Who won the debate Chris Wallace…That sinking feeling I’ve had for the last forty years
    that the entire political spectrum is nothing more than orchestrated theater crystallized with
    this debate. The left-wing sound bites coming out of this sh_t show should convince you if
    nothing else does. Trump presented them on a platter. All we can do now is pray for an
    October surprise.

  28. Oh yeah, the syphilitic, atheist orange rapist you adore was sooooo outstanding; every single Nazi in the country loved him.

  29. Depressing: all those opportunities lost.

    There are any number of strong, ideological, patriotic & passionate points Trump COULD have made that would have highlighted the extreme differences between the Conservative & Liberal platforms. He could have spoken, directly & clearly, about Law & Order, about the foundational nature of the Constitution (and the need for SCOTUS to defend it), about the strength of the American Capitalism vs. Progressive Socialism / Entitlement, about Climate Change, about AntiFa & BLM, about Critical Race Theory and the horrors of anti-American propaganda, about a strong military, about getting back to basics in Education… Heck, the list is endless.

    And though he hit — in passing — several of these opportune points, he did not hammer them; he did not front & center them; he allowed them to be lost in his constant barrage of disgruntled noise.

    Wallace was poor and heavily biased: pressing Trump for direct answers on any number of issues (many of which would require far more than sound byte responses): Did you really pay just $750 in taxes? You say it was fake news but you also say it was stolen — which is it? What do you believe about the science of Climate Change? Do you — right here & now — condemn White Supremacy and right-wing Militia Groups? Biden received none of that. He was not asked to condemn AntiFa and the violence of anarchic BLM. He was not asked about the Green New Deal. He was not asked about Race Reparations? He was not pressed on defunding the police or a wealth tax or income redistribution…. Not a word.

    Rather he was consistently thrown the underhand softball: “Trump says your plan would trash the economy, what do you think of that? Such set-ups, of course, allowed Biden tosing that same refrain: “Trump is a liar….he’s absolutely wrong….he doesn’t know what he’s talking about”.

    Biden is weakest when given space & time…when challenged to talk and think (kinda like walking and chewing gum) and produce a coherent response. Trump, sadly, never gave him either the space or the time to look bad. This, of course, allowed Joe to relax and regurgitate nothing but a series of pre-programmed soundbytes.

    The whole thing was pathetic…especially compared to what it might have been.

  30. I think Trump overplayed his hand last night trying to rattle Biden and he ended up looking like a tactless boor. His bellicose verbosity made Biden come off looking like a patient elder statesman by comparison, despite his (Biden’s) content-free and incoherent answers. Plus, he handed the DNC a perfect excuse to back out of future debates by saying that Trump is not looking for a serious debate, he is just a narcissistic bully itching for a fight. (So far they don’t seem to be taking the bait, but Communist Party commentators on the state run media certainly seemed to think it was an option.) I think Trump should have let Biden ramble on, thereby giving him more than enough rope to hang himself. Every time Biden speaks for more than 30 seconds he loses votes and credibility. Trump lost a prime opportunity to show how incompetent Biden is to stand for high office of any type, and he may not get another chance, despite the DNC’s insistence that they are committed to future debates. But hey, I’m just one guy. I could be wrong.

  31. “Maintaing decorum” is especially stupid when the moderator is not even trying to hide that he is debating for your opponent.

    Did President Trump do the absolute optimum performance? Probably not. Would he have done better if he had worried about “preserving the dignity of presidential debates”? Definitely not. That would have just made it into a struggle session.

    We already saw how they played Romney, and that’s when they cared about not looking entirely one-sided.

  32. Hoping at the next presidential debate between President Trump and Candidate Biden, that ROE V. WADE is brought up in all of its bloody horror, naming that it allows Mothers to murder their unborn and just born children. Actually think about this. Our country allows these actions, legally. How totally sick!!!

    Hoping that the following is brought up during the next debate, as no matter how successful an economy, these mass murders and rejection of God’s Son, outweigh it all.

    From Aborting America book by Dr. Nathanson, one of the founders of NARAL.

    “We fed the public a line of deceit, dishonesty, a fabrication of
    statistics and figures. ”

    “How many deaths were we talking about when abortion was illegal? In
    NARAL (National Association for Repeal of Abortion Laws) we generally
    emphasized the drama of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but
    when we spoke of the latter it was always 5,000 to 10,000 a year. I
    confess that I knew the figures were totally false…”

    Good links:
    https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/03/how-abortion-movement-started-deceit-and-lies-dr-nathanson

    ?https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/bernard-nathansons-conversion-12002

    He was an atheist, but converted to Catholicism.

    God bless, C-Marie

  33. I listened only the spottily; my good lady watched the first hour until we turned to the 10 pm news. Nothing was said there would change our minds or, I’d guess, that of anybody else. But looking at the comments and the blog reports, I’m reminded of Psalm 62:

    “Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

    2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

    3 How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall shall ye be, and as a tottering fence.

    4 They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.

    5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him.

    6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

  34. Honestly I don’t think that there is any mortal hope for understanding between the two sides at large. For individuals here and there? Sure. But at large the difference is so vast that it would take an act of Divine Intervention.

    The left has recently reacted to the idea that 2+2 could be 5. Once you’ve swallowed that, you’re willing to believe anything for the narrative. Since even “yes” can mean “no”, there is no way to explain yourself. We see this quite well in politics: for example even President Trump’s disavowals of white supremacy are used to argue that he supports white supremacy. So what can even be discussed at that point?

    What can happen with individuals is that they can be blindsided by something in a non-political arena. For example, maybe they settle down to watch a football game and instead are told that there will be no such game because we need to understand that all cops are racist murderers. If that individual was told to accept “all cops are corrupt and racist” as a political position he would, even if he doesn’t really believe it, because most people in political mode just accept the narrative given. But that’s not the mode of thought he’s in when he’s settling down to watch a football game. Coming at the question from the lens of “why was my game cancelled?” he might actually reflect on whether he believes that all cops are racist or not. But then again, he might not. However it’s only in this sort of environment that there is even the potential for reflection and conversion.

  35. Dear Sheri. You might find the information at this link helpful concerning the claim that customers pay corporate taxes. Corporations do not gain wealth by creating and selling a product to their customers.

    If corporate taxes were paid by their customers why the constant striving by the corporations and their minions to reduce or eliminate their taxes? Do you think it was because Paul Ryan and Trump went to war to reduce corporate rates because they are concerned about the lowly wage slaves?

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/03/michael-hudson-trumps-tax-sleight-hand.html

  36. @ABS,
    No business, corporate or otherwise, pays taxes. The owners, operators and/or customers do. Some are both owners and operators. Some operators are not owners. All are customers at some point. Making a business pay taxes simply makes them tax collector agencies.

  37. What is with these people who don’t understand that corporations are legal persons that pay taxes? Yes, there may be ways to reduce or avoid certain taxes depending on the tax scheme in the relevant jurisdiction of operation or incorporation, but unless it is a pass-through entity like an S-Corp or an LLC (unless the LLC has specifically chosen to be taxed at entity level), corporations are taxable entities (this is different from taxes owners/operators pay as personal income when they pay themselves). This notion that “customers” pay corporate taxes is bizarre (yes, retailers are essentially deputized to collect sales taxes for the state from customers, but the seller may not be the actual maker of the product, and the sales tax collection has no bearing on corporations’ taxes as such owed on its own profits).

    Even then, some states, like mine, have certain minimum LLC entity taxes regardless of pass-through status for federal purposes. If gross receipts are less than $3million, it’s only a nominal flat tax of $175 per year, but over $3million there are significant entity level taxes computed on the LLCs gross profit (of course, as always there are deductions for COGS, etc.). Likewise, my municipality collects “Occupational license” taxes from businesses based on the businesses net profits.

    Not having seen them, I’d be willing to be most of the flap over Trump’s taxes is caused by him taking very little in the way of income from his businesses as income that would be taxable on his personal 1040 (which is what media focuses on, as if a billionaire with numerous businesses and a complicated tax scheme can be assessed the same way as someone who gets a paycheck every two weeks – with taxes already withheld from his gross – and fills out a 1040EZ every year with TurboTax), but I bet the various businesses themselves, even with great planning to minimize as much as possible, pay all kinds of taxes – from those similar to what I described for LLCs in my state and city, to payroll taxes, property taxes, etc.

  38. CDQ (You don’t mind that acronym?)

    By definition a corporation is a legal entity that is separate and distinct from its owners.

    The corporation does pay taxes where the tax code demands;
    if there are dividends paid the owners, those dividends are taxed and paid for by the shareholder where the tax code demands. This is often referred to as “double taxation”.

    Where the tax code demands:

    I constantly saw on FB, people harping how “this corporation” or “that corporation”, despite HUGE revenue and profits did not pay taxes. The problem with those FB complaints were that the corporations cited had experienced EVEN HUGER losses in the previous year or years before.

    That is just considering INCOME tax. The corporation STILL pays employment taxes and income taxes with or without deductions for whatever the state their BASE is.

  39. Having been owner and operator of an incorporated business as well as one that wasn’t, I disagree; except for certain legal liabilities. For taxes, the money is a distinction without a difference. You can shield some; but that shield can be and is pierced. The money comes from people. The value resides in the minds of people who create useful things, tangible and intangible, that other people find the cost/benefit (another opinion in minds) worth it.

  40. No Balance Sheet, Income Statement, Cash flow

    It SOUNDS your talking about the Value of a business which yes is not taxable until it’s amortized

    If a corporation can keep its revenue streams in line with its expense streams then yeah, no taxes

    If you’re running an LLC and paying your salary to “shield” the “corporation” from paying taxes, you eliminate the “double tax”, but if you have a number of investors who are not participants, they are eventually going to want a means to eventually reaquire their investment and profit

    Or is everything I understand about accounting wrong?

  41. “The money comes from people. The value resides in the minds of people who create useful things…” Sorry but this doesn’t mean anything, especially in relation to whether and how corporations pay taxes. Sounds like you’re trying to make some abstract argument about the origin of value and wealth, and essentially arguing that corporations don’t really exist, only people…but that is a philosophical, not a legal argument. They are separate and distinct legal entities – legal persons – from their owners, though depending on the exact corporate format they may be treated as pass-through entities for certain tax purposes, or be entitled to other deductions, etc., as the case may be in any particular tax jurisdiction.

    “Having been owner and operator of an incorporated business as well as one that wasn’t, I disagree” In your case maybe. For example, if one runs an unincorporated sole proprietorship, but then creates an LLC to run the business for liability purposes, it probably won’t change your tax status much, since a single-member LLC can be treated as a pass-through entity. I did that for years myself, and only had to pay the minimum LLC tax of $175 per year in my state, the rest flowed through to my personal 1040 and was treated no differently than when I was unincorporated…but that’s not really what people are usually talking about when they talk about corporate taxes as a political issue (they mean multinationals like Amazon or Apple, or billionaire developers like Trump, etc.)

  42. https://americansfortaxfairness.org/tax-fairness-briefing-booklet/fact-sheet-corporate-tax-rates/

    If the taxes of corporations are paid by their customers (us) and the corporations get taxed at lower rates thanks to Ryan and Trump, then that must mean the customers experience a increase in money that could apply to their savings.

    Then, let’s totally eliminate taxes on profit/capital gains/FIRE holdings etc for corporations and me and thee will have ever increasing amounts of money to save and invest,

  43. @ john b(),
    No, not really; but I took a class in business law and accounting when I went into business. It was made clear to me that I was dealing with abstractions.

    @Dennis,
    Very true.

  44. Oh! That reminds me – I heard at one time that the DEMs want to tax your “paper” capital gains every year whether you cash in or not

  45. Dear CD It is estimated that corporations have parked over two trillion dollars of taxable income/profit/deferrals etc overseas.

    If that money was brought back here and taxed, would me and thee still be paying that amount of income/profit/income?

    ABS is, obviously, not a tax specialist or a grad of an economic program and he does not have his own business although, to be fair to him, ABS has always wanted to be his own boss so he could fire his goofy ass.

    The little ABS does know about economics was learnt from “Ethics and the National Economy” by the great Philosopher-Economist (He was the originator to the solidarity concept) Heinrich Pesch S.J.

    The other economist ABS follows is Michael Hudson at Unz Review.

    Now, ABS will clam-up and try to learn from others on this thread

  46. Hmm, ABS, part of what Trump did with tax code and tariff (redundant) changes were designed to do just that, which is repatriate that parked money. For me, personally, I am paying the same. Writ large? I don’t know.

  47. John B(): Taxing unrealized paper gains is one of the most inane proposals I’ve ever heard (Sounds like something AOC would come up with!). Unless people can pay the proposed tax with imaginary money.

  48. CDQ: It may…I was just joking because it sounds like the kind of hair-brained thing AOC would think a brilliant economic plan.

  49. Obviously, nobody won on debate points. The whole thing was,a Three Stooges pie fight. That said, Trump needed a home run. Biden just needed to act for 90 minutes like he wasn’t senile. Trump didn’t get his home run, and Biden looked old and frail but not senile. In that sense, I believe Biden won.

  50. Briggs:

    Well, well, well. Lookee here:

    (Associate Press report)
    https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity-joe-biden-donald-trump-86bc00fe35ae242fabeafd6bf857a562

    “…7:35 p.m. 10/6/20

    Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden says he and President Donald Trump “shouldn’t have a debate” as long as the president remains positive for the coronavirus.

    Biden said Tuesday that he’s “looking forward to being able to debate him” but said “we’re going to have to follow very strict guidelines.” He says he doesn’t know Trump’s status since the president returned to the White House after being hospitalized at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center for three days after a COVID-19 diagnosis.

    Biden told reporters while boarding his plane back to Delaware in Hagerstown, Maryland: “I think if he still has COVID, then we shouldn’t have a debate.”…”

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