# Black And White Homicide Rates: Who’s Killing Whom?

This classic post is being picked up in several places, and the reason is not far to seek. Later we’ll have a poll where I’ll ask “Which is the dumbest educated group?” and where choice (A) will be “Reporters.” This post first ran 27 January 2013.

Blacks who commit homicide do so at a rate about 7.5 times larger than whites who commit homicide. The trend in black homicide correlates well with the change in overall homicide. This disparity also exists for other crimes: blacks commit them at about 7-10 times the rates of whites.

Going on a suggestion made by reader JH when we first examined the homicide statistics1, I put both races together on one plot to make comparisons fair.

First is the homicide rate for Blacks and Whites, over-plotted with the homicide victim rate for both groups, finally over-plotted with the overall homicide rate (taken from the post on guns and homicides).

Figure 1

Note that the blue line is scaled to the right vertical axis, and is the overall homicide rate (as estimated by the FBI and Census). The black lines are killers, and the red victims. The dashed are Blacks, the solid Whites. (See this post for separate pictures of each race, where the general decline of White homicide rates, and its slight upward bump in 1990 is more visible.)

Obviously, the overall homicide rate correlates nicely with the Black rates. In an odd coincidence, according to the FBI the number of Black victims is almost identical to the number of White victims.

Whatever is happening in Black populations is largely responsible for the decline in homicide rates.

One thing is more or less constant: the rates for Black killers are much higher than for White killers, as this picture which shows the ratio of rates demonstrates:

Figure 2

Rates bob around, but average out to about 7.5 times higher.

Perhaps the difference lies in who is killing whom. Lumping all the Black and White homicides together, here are the percentages of Blacks killing Whites and White killing Blacks:

Figure 3

Racial animosity is on the rise, homicidally speaking. This will come as no surprise to anybody who isn’t an NPR listener. More Blacks kill Whites than the reverse, which strangely is exactly what you don’t hear on TV. Update Perhaps this trend will escalate, given the media’s glee in stoking racial discontent.

Lastly, here are the percentages for the races killing each other:

Figure 4

Fairly self-explanatory.

Update Fig. 2 with new axes limits.

Fig. 2b

Update Breakdown of male (Figure A1) and female (Figure A2) Black and White homicide rates. Note the change in scale between the sexes. Males are about 10 times as homicidal as females.

Figure A1

Figure A2

The ratio of Black to White, by sex and age group, is also interesting.

Figure A3

Figure A4

Black males maintain a consistent edge over White males, homicidally speaking, regardless of age group. Though the gap is closing, or at least leveling off, for females.

—————————————————————————-

1The data are from the FBI (details here), the Census Bureau, and the Department of Justice (details here). For W/B,B/W homicides, see htus8008f19.csv in the DOJ link.

#### Black And White Homicide Rates: Who’s Killing Whom? — 51 Comments

1. Briggs,
White and Black, or Black and non-Black? I link below to a fascinating collection of reports from the Chicago Police Department, and organization which appears to have some interest in terminal affairs.

I suspect that there is a lot to work with there, for example the departed (murdered) in Chicago tend to be predominantly folks who have been guests of the Judicial System at an earlier point. Most have been sent on their way by handgun.

One might ask what might be the annual local consumption of ammunition in the calibers preferred, (these guys are well known to be lousy shots – maybe a matter of seeing too many movies demonstrating an especially ineffective method for grasping a handgun), how many shots were required to dispatch the departed, collateral woundings and killings, numbers dispatched per event, and perhaps more importantly, percent of the killer/killee cohort as a part of the local population.

I was fortunate to sit through a course in criminology in 1963 and to hear that the 18-27 male cohort was the author(?) of most of the crime in the US. The larger this cohort was the more crime.

The lecturer, who was fond of the term “adjudicated”, suggested that some smart politician would recognize an oncoming reduction in the numbers of the miscreant containing cohort, devise some scheme to “reduce” crime and then when the stunted cohort came of age, take credit for his/her success.

I cannot recommend to highly a look at say the 2011 Chicago Murder Analysis Report which can be found at the above link, not the least because of the discontinuity between the content and the attractive cover.

One last bit. It does appear that more murders are the result of the activities of the local shooting clubs than any other cause. I wonder if the NRA has considered inviting their application for membership. It could be that with a little instruction and target practice, they might reduce the rate of collateral murders, and increase the percentage of forced departures of prior guests of the justice system.

It is clearly another example of how informative looking into something can be.

https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/News/Statistical%20Reports/Murder%20Reports

2. Upstream from the linked page is a broader listing of publications of the Chicago Police Department including “Crime at a Glance.”

No-one could say these guys aren’t droll.

3. I would expect better data presentation from you than this, Matt.

Figure 2 should include the origin, so you can judge visually whether these results represent a roughly constant or a wildly varying ratio.

Figures 3 and 4 are misleading. If you care about inter-racial homicide, what really matters is whether the overall rate is going up or down, not how that compares to the overall homicide rate, which is dominated by black-on-black killing. The last figure (Fig 4) seems especially useless, because it suggests visually that there’s a mirror relationship between white-on-white killing and black-on-black killing. But, surely that’s another artifact of the fact that these stats are all dominated by black-on-black killing. When that goes down significantly, the percentages of the other categories will all rise, but that says nothing interesting about them at all.

4. Oh, I wondered why there was an inverse correlation between black-black and white-white murders, if they are % of all murders, dominated by black-black then of course they look inversely correlated.

And does white mean actual caucasian, or are hispanic being grouped in with that group? What about asian? It would also be interesting to see African American (used as African’s who are naturalized citizens) vs American blacks (used as American with some fraction of African), but I suppose that data isn’t gathered.

5. An increasing white on black and black on white might correlate with increased intermarriage. That makes more black-white in-laws. Since most murders are family related …

6. Mathematician “La Griffe du Lion” has written a number of related pieces.

Why Most Serial Killers are White Men
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/serial.htm

Politics, Imprisonment and Race
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/prison.htm

Racial Disparities in School Discipline
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/discipline.htm

Aggressiveness, Criminality and Sex Drive by Race, Gender and Ethnicity
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/fuzzy.htm

The Color of Death Row
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/DP.htm

Crime in the Hood
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/hood.htm

7. Tom P,

There’s a good reason R has the defaults axes it does; Fig. 2 is plotted with these defaults. A quick glance at Fig. 1 and then at Fig. 2 shows that these series are roughly similar for Blacks. There is a little more noise in 2, true, but the only conclusion I made, and the one I don’t think you dispute, is that Blacks commit homicide at a much higher rates than Whites. True?

Figs. 3 and 4 are lifted directly from the table I pointed to. If you think these “especially useless” I suggest emailing the DOJ and telling them to stop compiling this data.

But then your statement “what really matters is whether the overall rate is going up or down” is false. Suppose the Black and White homicide were perfectly flat, and even equal. It could be that Blacks just kill blacks or that they kill only Whites, and vice versa, or it could be that Blacks only kill Whites and vice versa. There’s no way to tell who is killing whom just looking at the overall rate.

8. Ferguson.

Briggs.
Could you elaborate a tad more on why figure 2 is ok? I also would have preferred a axis starting at 0 (and stopping at 10) for data going from roughly 6 to 9.

9. Bill S,

Sure. Why stop at 10? Why not 20? Or 100? Or, since the range can be infinite (only Blacks could be killers, say), why not as high as we can go?

Plus, since I only want to establish that the rate is about 7 times higher, I’ve done that with this chart. At least, I don’t think I hear anybody (not just here, but anywhere) claiming anything different.

But, in the sake of domestic harmony, see above shortly for an update.

Decided 56 year old pencil pushers should not do that.
Using Crown Royal to ease the ache in lower back.
Do not claim full faculties.
But the question is honest. I would use 1 to roughly 110% of peak because the data is a ratio.
But what I do is based on experience presenting data to customers. I was hoping you knew some rules on presenting statistical data and would elaborate.

11. Matt,

I read recently (don’t have a link inhand) that when accounting for single parenthood, blacks ad whites commit murder at the same rate. Thoughts?

Sounds plausible, anyway. Data?

What I’d like to find are the same stats above, but going back pre-WW II. Then we’d have some better indication of how social policy influenced the numbers.

13. The rule of thumb for scaling recommended by Joiner was that the window of the time series be 1.5 to 2.0 times the range of the data. It’s an aesthetic choice: random variation looks random, assignable variation looks assignable. On Shewhart control charts, the control limits ought to be about an inch apart. (Lit. “rule of thumb”) This is useful in industrial situations so that one does not spook the herd.

14. It would be interesting to see the effect of punishment policies on crime severity. With 3 strikes law and death penalty one might be incline to eliminate witness if things goes bad. Though a vast majority of killings are gangs related.

15. Related to the underlying reasons for the trends noted:

Violence—Suicide is Contagious: http://www.micronesiaproject.org/2010/11/i-somehow-feel-that-i.html

Violence is Contagious: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/01/violence-is-contagious/

Bystanders effect on interpersonal violence makes a difference: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1298601

Watching violence—especially by youth with developing brain neurology—leads to desensitization to violence: http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/aggr/articles/Huesmann/2007.Huesmann&Kirwil.WhyObservingViol.CambridgePress.pdf
…but then, that knowledge is nothing new: http://killology.com/book_stop_summary.htm

http://www.killology.com/ is a website by a retired military officer dedicated to the psychological effects of having to kill [e.g. by policy or military] and related effects. Humans appear to be “hard-wired” such that the act of one human killing another human appears to be intrinsically distasteful & instinctively unnatural under any circumstance, including unquestionably legitimate situations such as in various self-defense scenarios. This has been observed in a number of military engagements (especially in WW-II, and via archeological & re-enactments of US Civil War engagements) – the findings led to means of desensitizing military recruits between WW-II and the Vietnam conflict. Many of those de-sensitization techniques have found their way into numerous video games and television shows. Anyone interested in this would benefit by reading, “On Killing, : The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society” by Dave Grossman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/qid=973195800/104-1614587-2282360 ).

16. “It would be interesting to see the effect of punishment policies on crime severity. With 3 strikes law and death penalty one might be incline to eliminate witness if things goes bad. Though a vast majority of killings are gangs related.”

If you want to look at the effects of severe punishments on murders, see Singapore, Saudi Arabia, or Bahrain.

17. Pingback: Tuesday Highlights | Pseudo-Polymath

18. Tom P, Bill S, Ye Olde Statistician, Briggs

R returns “statistically significant” plots, that is, it maximizes the area of the plot since it cannot possibly know what is significant for our field of study.

But this is subjective not just to the field of research but to the researchers themselves. So it is up to the researchers to set the limits so that the plot makes the researchers point.

In short, plots can say more about the researchers than about the research itself! And, in this sense, there is no bad plots, only opinions that you might share or not.

19. “Blacks who commit homicide do so at a rate about 7.5 times larger than whites who commit homicide.”

Before you call others “dumb,” you should notice that “blacks who commit homicide” and “whites commit homicide” both do so at a rate of 100%.

20. Briggs,

Do you intend to mean that since blacks kill more people that makes it ok to kill black people?

I have a few question about the data:

Do they represent the people arrested or convicted?

They are many study that shows bias in conviction rate by either race of the victim or murderer.

If you can access it

http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/1228652.pdf?acceptTC=true

This for death sentences:

Victim:

Georgia Florida Illinois

BKW 20.1 13.7 7.5
WKW 5.7 5.2 1.9
bkb 0.8 0.7 0.6
wkb 2.9 4.3 0

So, in Florida, if the victim is white (27%) there is more chance that the killer will be put on death row than if the victim is black (7%). And if the murderer is black (16%) he has less chances to be put on death row than if is white(27%), because he killed more black people.

21. Its interesting that during this entire Trayvon Martin trial that no mention of what happens when a white person passes through a black neighborhood. Black on white killing happens for many reasons, the primary being during the commission of another crime. But many whites are killed in the exact same manner that this kid was killed. But to hear the media talk about it, this never happens, or happens only to black people. They claim to be upset that more blacks are in prison than whites but their neighborhoods are all but combat zones.
Maybe we should try for a bit of balance and fairness in reporting what is going on.

22. Carlo C,

Do the black who kill white go free after the trial?

The data I presented before shows that there is more value given to a white victim.

23. Carlo C.,

You remind me why I stopped “hangin’” with the modern liberals. You are too in love with the propaganda that has been around since before I was born!!!

You state a conclusion without presenting ANY data to explain it, yet expect us to accept that Whites are given more value due to BIAS of the SYSTEM or the GUBMINT. Why is this your assumption???

Let us look at the basics. Most murders happen in areas like Chicago with HIGH murder rates. In these areas we have the MAN, the SYSTEM, the Courts, Judges, Prosecutors, Attorneys, Court Recorders… majority Democrats and leftards. Yes, the people you appear to align with are overseeing this apparently UNJUST system that gives low value to the black.

Please explain this. If you cannot just ask and I will explain it to you.

24. @kuhnkat,

I think you were mistaken in Identiy.

Anyhow, I have provided data that show that if the victim is white, it is 4 times more likely that the murdurer will be put on death row. And if the killer of a white victim is black then he is more likely to be put on death row, than if he is white.

So yes, this demonstrate that there is more value given to a white life than a blac life.

25. @SylvainAllard Or, it could just be that racial agitators have sufficiently intimidated the justice system that they are now less likely to execute a black murderer just to avoid the knee-jerk charges of racism that they know they can expect.

26. TomP,

The study the data come from list black as having killed about 131 white persons and 96 black.

While the white killed 234 white persons and 11 blacks.

When you compare black people killing white and white killing white. Black are condemn to death a higher rate than white.

27. Sylvain,

You showed that the same people whom the blacks vote for repetitively put blacks in jail at a high rate and sentence them to death at a higher rate than whites. Many of those same people are black and Hispanic doing what you seem to think is a dirty deed against blacks.

Sadly you also do not consider that most states do NOT allow the death penalty anymore so that skews the data. You also apparently are so BIASED that you can not entertain the idea that the sentences are actually JUST!!! That Blacks are actually given so much leeway in their previous encounters with the law that they continue reoffending until the court has no choice but to give them the maximum sentences.

Your BIAS blinds you to real possibilities that you MUST research before you can come to the conclusions you try and pass off as fact.

28. @Kuhnkat,

The biggest bias that I showed is that when victim is black, the chances of seeing the murderer go free is much higher, than when a white is the victim.

My claim is supported by the first paper that I linked to, and in this one:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15324834basp0301_2#.UedXmc-1bb0

“Abstract

Two experiments were conducted to investigate how racial bias affects juror decision making. Three sources of bias were studied: (1) prior probabilities of guilt, (2) distortion of the meaning of evidence, and (3) differential weighting of information. A paired comparison technique employed in the first study revealed that pretrial probabilities of guilt were greater when the victim was White than when she was Black. In the second experiment, a different group of subjects viewed one of four videotaped simulated rape trials in which seven segments of testimony had been previously rated as pro-prosecution, pro-defense, or neutral. During the trial, subjects rated each segment on three different scales: prosecution, defense, and degree of defendant guilt. Results indicated that neutral evidence was seen as more favorable to prosecution for a White victim compared to a Black victim. Evidence which favored either prosecution or defense was not distorted. Regression analyses revealed a positive relationship between estimates of guilt and distortion of evidence. The weight or importance of the evidence did not vary as a function of victim or defendant race. Years of recommended imprisonment indicated greater severity toward the Black assailant of a White woman. The results suggest that bias in favor of White victims occurs both in the assessment of pretrial probabilities and perception of evidence.”

What is described in this article show the same result than the first one I posted. When the victim is white the likelihood to be found guilty is much greater than if the victim is black.

This is what the author says in his conclusion of the first paper:

“The major factual finding of this study is simple: There has
been racial discrimination in the imposition of the death penalty
under post-Furman statutes in the eight states that we examined.
The discrimination that we found is based on the race of the victim,
and it is a remarkably stable and consistent phenomenon.
Capital sentencing disparities by race of victim were found in
each of the eight states, despite their diversity….Our findings are consistent with a large body of previous
research, and, in two states-Georgia and Mississippi- they parallel
the findings of studies that include more detailed information
than was available to us.”

It is really shocking read someone who believe that blacks are given more leeway in their previous encounter. In the US, it has been shone that white smokes weeds at a rate a little higher than blacks yet blacks are arrested and convicted, at a much higher rate than white.

29. Sylvain Allard on 16 July 2013 at 6:15 pm said: “Carlo C, Do the black who kill white go free after the trial?”

If they are acquitted, yes they go free.

30. Sylvain:

http://patriotupdate.com/2013/07/blacks-benefit-more-than-whites-from-flas-stand-your-ground-law/

Sylvain, that study is over 20 YEARS OLD with data even older. Shoud we be investigating whether the KKK are really racist also??

The glove didn’t fit and they acquitted OJ even though there was blood and DNA all over the place, yet, YOU think blacks don’t get the benefit of the doubt.

Again, when someone is GUILTY and all the evidence shows they are guilty they are USUALLY convicted. Yet YOU have this mythological thinking going on that it is only because the LEFTARD courts who repeatedly let these criminals go to commit more crimes are convicting them for no good reasons. Seriously man, you need some reality injections.

31. Sylvain,

Sylvain,

I feel youare probably not happy with my blowing off the study you thought so highly of so here is more info to show it is absolutely USELESS to apply to an actual court case in the real world.

1) would any of the people used as subjects even be selected to sit on a jury??
2) they claim a bias in evaluating the evidence. How do we quantify that in an actual trial?? It is a relatively MEANINGLESS statement. In the Zimmerman trial some of the jurors WANTED to find George guilty. Why didn’t they?? Because the instructions from the court CONSTRAINED their actions in a manner that was not duplicated in this wonderful social experiment because the subjects could not be sworn in as jurors. Additionally the Theatre often used by the attorneys and the experts explanations in addition to the demeanor of the persons involved, especially the defendant, will affect the jurors evaluation consciously and unconsciously. How did they compensate for the fact that cases in court are so varied?!?! There were only 4 SIMULATED rape trials This is abysmally inadequate even excluding the possibility of bias in the way the simulated trials were run.

3) I am still wondering why they wasted their time blathering about pretrial probabilities. What happens IN the trial often completely changes any clear bias from pretrial.

4) “The results suggest that bias in favor of White victims occurs both in the assessment of pretrial probabilities and perception of evidence.”

If you do not understand what the word SUGGESTS means in the above line please look it up. This is a very WEAK statement that is seen in numerous pieces of JUNK SCIENCE along with honest work that is admitting it doesn’t mean much.

5) Finally, this bias only matters if there is insufficient evidence to clearly show guilt or innocence. Do you think EVERY court case is a Perry Mason case??

If you get me a copy I would be happy to look through it and see if they made any real boners in running their experiments.

Do yourself a favor and look for studies that use actual cases and do reasonable background investigations and collection of real life data rather than iffy experimental stuff that is subject to its own problems and biases.pieces of JUNK SCIENCE along with honest work that is admitting it doesn’t mean much.

5) Finally, this bias only matters if there is insufficient evidence to clearly show guilt or innocence. Do you think EVERY court case is a Perry Mason case??

If you get me a copy I would be happy to look through it and see if they made any real boners in running their experiments.

32. Kuhnkat,

rom the source of the article you linked to:

“Forty four African Americans in the state of Florida have claimed a “Stand Your Ground” defense. Of these claims, 24 were considered “justified” (55 percent), while 11 resulted in convictions and nine cases are still pending.

Of the 76 white people who have used the defense, 40 were considered “justified” (less than 53 percent), while 25 were convicted and 11 cases are still pending.”

They missed, and you seem to miss the point, that the biggest part of the problem is the race of the victims. How many were black victims and how many were none black. How many got freed when comparing the victims. When a black is killed the guy will go free at a much higher rate than when it is a white.

When comparing the murderer. A black that kills a white will convicted at a higher rate than a white killing white, but the difference will be less than when comparing victims.

Meanwhile, a black woman was sentenced to 20 years while not having killed anyone.

http://www.inquisitr.com/234987/marissa-alexander-domestic-abuse-victim-sentenced-to-20-years-for-warning-shot/

33. So our leftist idiot still does not get that blacks commit more crime and then complains about a black being sentenced for committing a crime.
And of course not mentioning she did not act in self defence.

Dishonest these lefties.

34. Andy,

“Dishonest these lefties.” As honesty goes there is very little to be learn from the right.

But yes, it is normal that a black should be condemn for committing no crime and a white liberated for killing a kid. You can then claim that blacks commit more crime.

What is illegal for a black is not illegal for a white. This is a big reason why blacks commit more crime.

35. Males are more homicidal than females? Thats what the statistics say. But you will get a different answer from any male who has been at the recieving end of the “look”, from the fair sex….

36. So, did anyone’s preconceived notions change even one iota as a result of all this hot air?

37. No Sylvia, as i thought you are merely stupid, and come here to parade your self aggrandizing morality.
Black people commit more violent crime. That is quite clear. The lady you referred to in the above link, most definitly did commit a crime and was correctly punished. You have not provided and cannot provide any evidence of white people (Zimmerman?) not being found guilty of crimes incorrectly. The zimmerman verdict is correct both morally and legally.

What is illegal is illegal, sadly black people do not see this and do break the law more often, particularly when it comes to murder as shown above. Or are there lots of whites killing folk, but not being found guilty….no?

Yes the right is more honest, you find it unpalatable and hide behind the lefty hive mind as a defence.

38. Andy,

The Zimmerman acquittal is a complete travesty both legally and morally.

If he had caught Trayvon Martin stealing or breaking and entering, he may have had a case. If he was so scared he only had to stay in his car. If Tayvon Martin had been white the killer would have been condemn of first degree murder and put to death. But in the USA and even more in the south the life of black is worth less than a cockroaches, so the killer goes free.

You say that Melissa Alexander who was beaten and even sent to the hospital while pregnant committed a crime for firing a single bullet that did not injure or kill anyone. How many white people have been condemn for the same thing. A violent husband is more than a good reason to shoot a warning shot.

Your law are biased anti-black and the south of the USA is just as retarded as the Taliban.

39. Legally Zimmerman was released because self defence is a defence. In addition he should never have been charged, only being charged due to the hysterical idiot rantings of the liberal left.
Morally Zimmerman had a right to defend himself from the Trayvon. A young man, who was a thief, a drug taker and a violent thug. If Zimmerman did profile him, he profiled him correctly.
It in not illegal to get out of your car, nor to follow someone. Nor is it wrong to stop someone before a crime occurs. It is illegal, as Trayvon did, to assault someone. The evidence is quite clear Trayvon, a racist, assaulted Zimmerman the ‘crazy ass cracker’.
Your inability to discuss crime without excusing it based on the colour of a persons skin marks you out as the worst kind of racist, one who cannot grasp the simple fact that black people commit more violent crime. You should be ashamed but you lefties abandoned shame years ago.
Oh and by your own logic Alexander could have stayed in the car if she was scared and not returned to attempt to murder her husband. I assume you think, stopping black people from murdering black people is anti-black…..

40. Andy,

Is entire self-defence case rested upon him being able to get is gun at the last minute, while his head was smashed on the concrete. Something that is impossible, since he said that his gun was inside his pants, on his back on his right side. How could he access it while Martin was above him. It is impossible.

Zimmerman lied on Hannity when he said he never heard of stand your ground, yet he got an A in a class that discussed it. He had a lot of reason to lie, mainly to lie about at which moment he pull out his gun, because if he pulled it out sooner than he claim, he cannot claim self- defence.

The most disturbing after the event is its lack of any affect. Policeman and military personnel almost all get into nervous shock or even developed PTSD after killing someone. Yet this guy was calm and matter of fact has if nothing had happened. These are signs that this guy is a psychopath/sociopath. By the way, how can someone forget the name of the street where he has been walking his dog for the last 4 years.

The color of the skin does not matter a bit to me. That the victim is black or white should change nothing to case. But for racist individual, the fact that the victim is black equals automatic self-defence for the killer, even more when he is not black.

The problem is that he didn’t prevent any crime, Martin had full right to get to his dad’s house. Nothing in Martin’s past lead to him breaking and entering homes.

If Alexander was trying to kill her husband, why has she fired only one round, why is nobody dead. At least her husband had a violent past where he put her in the hospital while she was pregnant. BTW, she tried to get away through the garage but couldn’t find her keys. Isn’t the castle doctrine and stand your ground about not having to flee a dangerous situation.

41. This is plainly rubbish. Why is it impossible to get a gun from your back on the right?And no the entire case did not hinge on this made up fact. Lying to a journalist is not illegal, not being a good student is not illegal. No your second made up fact, relies on the first made up fact. At least you now seem to accept Trayvon assaulted GZ.
No Sylvia people who kill others have a wide variety of responses. Again you are just making stuff up. Could you list the signs GZ is a psychopath?
I’m afraid that many things in Trayvons past suggest he robbed people, like the unfortunate fact that he was caught at school with stolen property and the tools for stealing them. He was violent and a drug user, he purchased two of the three things you need to make lean. The jury heard none of this and yet still found GZ innocent.
Exactly how do you know a crime was not prevented? Oh silly me more made up stuff.
No Sylvia, Alexander returned to her car after her partner confronted her about her ex who he suspected had fathered her child, she then went back to the house with a gun retrieved from the car, pointed it at her partner and the children and then fired. Sweetie, she’s a criminal, Trayvon was a criminal. And they get judged on the content of their character and on their actions, not on the colour of their skin as you seem to think they should be.

42. Andy,

1) it is Sylvain, not Sylvia.

2) “Why is it impossible to get a gun from your back on the right?”

Get onto your back with someone on your torso and try to get a gun from your right back side. This is based on GZ testimony during the walkthrough with the police. So this is not a made up fact. By the way, he was the best student in is class for stand your ground.

Why did he lie to Hannity? Wasn’t he on his side?

3) “No… people who kill others have a wide variety of responses. Again you are just making stuff up. Could you list the signs GZ is a psychopath?

You can see the sign and symptoms hereÈ

http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/psychopathy_checklist.html

Most, if not all of these symptoms applies to GZ, Mainly:

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM (strong desire to become a cop, enforce laws has he see fit.)
4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING (Hannity)
6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT (It was gods plan!!!)
7. SHALLOW AFFECT (no emotion after killing someone)
8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY (never tried to help MArtin after he shot him, let him die).
10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS (court mandate, resisted arrest, hit police officer, sexualy assaulted her cousin for years (witness #9).
11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR (sexualy assaulted her cousin for years (witness #9))
13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS (training in MMA fighting but was described as a whimp, would never make it in police).
14. IMPULSIVITY (getting out of his car when he lost him.
16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS (refused to take responsibilities for initiating the fight.)
20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY (Got of for murdering a kid, beating is wife, abusing a cousin).

Other may apply but we would need to know more about his childhood, all of these facts were mention in the trial.

4) “I’m afraid that many things in Trayvons past suggest he robbed people, like the unfortunate fact that he was caught at school with stolen property and the tools for stealing them. He was violent and a drug user, he purchased two of the three things you need to make lean. The jury heard none of this and yet still found GZ innocent.”

Any sources, proofs for these claims, like any arrest. The school denied that he was ever expelled.

The defence received the okay from the judge to mention the use of cannabis (which was found at the level of trace). The defence didn’t mentioned it because cannabis render people less aggressive, more mellow. Cannabis is used at a higher rates among white individual, than blacks. I’m a very rare exception to never have tried any drugs.

5) “Exactly how do you know a crime was not prevented? Oh silly me more made up stuff.”

I forgot walking while black in the US is a crime.

As for Alexander, the children were not in the room and the shot was fire away from them. If she had been white she would not have been charged, and again no one is injured.

Matin was not a criminal, he was a kid doing the same thing millions of white kids do everyday.

43. No Sylvia its not impossible to get a gun from your back in that position. Why have you not listed all the points in the link? You have chosen those that fit in your mind, merely a case of looking for evidence to support your bigotry. The list, in the link you provided fits Trayvon much better.
Did I say Trayvon was arrested? I said he was caught, by the school. I suggest you do some research.
And no the deliberate race baiting of “walkin whilst black” as a crime is untrue. Of course assaulting a man so much that he is scared of his life is a crime.
No sylvia the children were in the room, the court documents state that she pointed the gun at all three victims. Your attempt to excuse bad behaviour on the colour of her skin is deplorable.

I doubt very much whether millions of any kids, white or black live a life of thuggish drugged up violence similar to Trayvons.

44. Andy,

Have you tried to retrieve a gun in the position described by Zimmerman, I did and it is simply impossible to do unless you have very long harms. I’m 5’8″ and Zimmerman is 5’7″.

It is impossible to reach the gun from that position. The most likely scenario is that Zimmerman instigated the fight by pointing the gun at Martin. It is also ridiculous to claim that Zimmerman was the one yelling for help. It was Martin yelling for his life, this is why the yell stops when the shots is fired. Remember that Zimmerman said he wasn’t sure he had hit Martin, so why would Zimmerman stop yelling if he wasn’t sure he had it him. The guy is scared for his life and he holster back the weapon as if nothing happened. This is not believable, and it would not be believable if Martin was white and Zimmerman black.

Yet for you it would be all different. The only reason you believe Zimmerman is because he shot a black kid, if he had shot a white kid, you would have been the first to claim that Zimmerman should have received the death penalty.

Martin was never arrested for violence while and the idea that some burglar tool were found in his possession comes from…….. a conservatives blogger?? Zimmerman had priors for violence against his ex-fiancé. If at least it had come from a reputable source it might be believable but from a blogger!!! Sorry, find better excuses.

People have the right to defend themselves, but people who go out of their way to get into a fight cannot claim self-defence after they get their ass kick because they are wimp. I don’t believe Zimmerman version of the fact. He lied to many time to be believable, and his version is simply physically impossible, unless the law of physics don’t apply to Florida.

“Why have you not listed all the points in the link?”

To be a psychopath, a person doesn’t have to show every symptoms. There are symptoms like irresponsibility that may apply to him but that were not shone in the trial.

Most likely Zimmerman will kill someone else in the next few years.

45. Sylvia, i have given you the benefit of the doubt but I can only conclude you are as daft as a spanner.
It is not impossible to get a gun from that position. If it were and your claim that GZ instigated the fight with a drawn gut, it would mean Trayvon attacked an armed man, harmed him and then got shot. This is absurd, it of course would still be self defence.
Every independent witness said the scream was from GZ, even Trayvons dad said it was not his son before changing his mind.
The reason I believe GZ, is that from the start, he was honest, every bit of evidence backed up his claims, the forensics backed up his claims as did the witnesses.
No, no one has stated that Trayvon was arrested for anything, just suspended several times by his school and also found by his school with stolen material. His twitter feed shows clearly his drug taking and violence. This is true Sylvia and nothing to do with racism.

46. Andy,

I have also given the benefit of the doubt and I most conclude to racism. Since in any case you are presented with the black is always the guilty party.

If ever you get to try it you will see that Zimmerman version, the only version we have since no one saw how the fight started or even ended, no one ever heard martin’s version because GZ made sure he could not talk.

“If it were and your claim that GZ instigated the fight with a drawn gut, it would mean Trayvon attacked an armed man, harmed him and then got shot. This is absurd, it of course would still be self defence.”

This is far from absurd. When you look at holdup-up footage in gas station and small store you will notice that many clerk react by reaching for the arm that hold the gun.

If someone pull the gun first, he becomes the aggressor, and no one can claim self-defence if he is the one that start the fight.

Zimmerman injuries were very minor. If Martin had been smashing his head on the concrete as O’mara portrayed during the trial when he used the dummy, Zimmerman would have had several cranial fracture, not little abrasion or cut.

If Martin, had pounded his face over 20 times with his fist, Zimmerman would have had at least been spitting blood from his mouth or he would have had a black eye or something or bruising. Not the little nose injury. Even is lawyer, in is closing argument, said that GZ lied and over stated the gravity of his injury.

Looking at this video I can only think that racism was the cause of the acquittal there is so much BS that doesn’t correspond to Zimmerman’s version of the fight: By the way, Zimmerman somehow got his gun in his hand as if he is a wizard.

While everything that is describe in this video doesn’t mention that Zimmerman is yelling for help while Martin is pounding him with his fist and smashing is head against the concrete and with his third hand, which might have been is dick, tried to reach for the gun, all at the same time. Of course, the body wasn’t found anywhere near of concrete.

This psychopath will kill again and the blood will in your hands.

47. You should keep in mind that the FBI statistics grossly understate the white/black disparity, because the FBI classifies hispanics as “white” only when they are perpetrators. In other words, as I understand it, there is a separate “hispanic” category for victims, but not for perpetrators.

So your white on black murders undoubtedly include a large number of murders by mestizo hispanics, and, to add insult to injury, the black on white murder rate does not even get the bump from black on hispanic murders.

48. Figure 4 shows an extraordinarily high (negative) correlation between Black on Bland and White on White.

It is mislabeled, somehow?

Why would there be such a high correlation? I can understand SOME postivie correlation or more likely, no correlation at all…, again, this shows a very high negative correlation.

What’s up with that?